Extreme Hyper Ethnocentrism of jews on Display in Israeli Attitude Towards the Gaza War

So let’s talk about your new article. I was just introducing it on the Extreme Hyper Ethnocentrism of jews on Display in Israeli Attitude Towards the Gaza War. And the striking things about your article, I guess, are the pretty serious warning about the fate of Gaza could be the fate of other countries and of the West. A lot of people, of course, would think that’s exaggerated. I’m not so sure.

So maybe you can elaborate on that. Why is the genocidal mania that’s overtaken Israel is related to jewish ethnocentrism and how that’s actually a threat to the West as well?

Kevin MacDonald: Yeah, well, I think every time jews have had, you know, absolute power, as they did in the Soviet Union for 20, 30 years there, and they have exercised it brutally against their enemies. And I’m concerned that we’ll see that again.

Now, you see, and you see it, you know, look at the Old Testament. I mean, all the injunctions for all the desires for genocide of these people who are their enemies. And all the jewish religious writing saying basically that gentiles are another species, they’re below us, they’re basically animals and that sort of thing.

And then you see that rhetoric regarding the Palestinians, and you will see that regarding Europeans. Because if and when we lose power, we haven’t lost power yet, obviously.

But I’m just concerned about the future because clearly the jewish establishment is desiring more and more immigration. So all the Western European countries, United States, Canada, Australia, they will all be minority White countries at some point. White people may not have enough power, political power, to really resist what is going on. And I just fear that jewish ethics is entirely self centered! For the interests of the group, nothing more! And completely the opposite of western ethics, which is universalist. You know, Kant’s categorical imperative.

Basically, you do what anybody else could do in that situation, you’d be okay with it.

So it’s like that sort of western universalism, which is unique in the world, really. Other cultures tend to be very ethocentric and they privileged their own group. But the West has this long liberal tradition really stemming from the Enlightenment, but in a way going earlier than that. And I trace it back to evolutionary roots in my book on Western Individualism. But that’s the basic idea that the West is tied to universalism. And there’s this sense that we should be universalist. It’s the moral thing to do, that we should basically take care of other people and see their point of view and all that.

Jewish ethics isn’t completely foreign! You know, it’s like you don’t care about what they think. The more Orthodox you get, and the Orthodox have taken over Israel. And I like today I get this email from Jonathan Greenblatt, the head of the ADL, and he’s been in Israel. He comes back to this message and basically he says:

“What happened on October 7 was anti-semitism.”

And you always see this by the jewish apologists that there is no context to what happened on October 7. There’s nothing about the blockade that’s been going on since 2003, nothing about all the oppressive policies that Israel’s engaged in over the years.

And what Israel’s doing is absolutely destroying Gaza! It’ll never really come back for years and years, if ever.

Kevin Barrett: Let me just question the idea that the West is so much more universalist and completely non-ethnocentric.

I mean, I think there’s some truths you’re talking about.

Kevin MacDonald: I don’t say it’s completely non-ethnocentric. Okay. But there certainly can be ethnocentric, but it’s relatively less than other cultures. And again, if you look at Joseph Heinrich’s book as well on Individuals in the West. He talks about how unique Western culture is. He talks about western universalism. And that’s exactly the big point of my book.

We are different. And it’s a problem now because western universalism, it’s hard to oppose these movements, these jewish intellectual movements and political movements, because they’re always phrased in universal terms. They’re always phrased in moral terms. And Westerners are suckers for that.

I mean, they want to be good people. Westerners don’t rely on kinship. They rely on being a good person in the group, having a good reputation.

And right now, Western culture is completely determined by these often jewish elites in the media and the academic world and so on.

So what needs to be a good person is to be totally accepting of immigration and your culture is nothing special, and let them come in and don’t worry about anything in the future.

But in-group out, group conflict, based on ethnicity has been going on forever, and it’s not going to stop now!

So I’m pessimistic about the future because I don’t see any big force in the West trying to turn back this tide. It’s just not going to happen.

Kevin Barrett: Yeah, I actually, over time, I’ve become more sympathetic to your viewpoint. You know, when we first started having these discussions on my radio show, I don’t know, ten years ago or something, I was still, you know, kind of holding you at arm’s length and saying, but this and that.

Over time, I’ve realized that there’s a lot more truth to what you’re saying and a lot more of a good scholarly basis to your work than maybe I had realized, probably, than a lot of other people realized, too.

Let me say, however, I still think that when we talk about Western universalism, the way it manifests itself and often has in going back a ways in the history, is actually not much better, maybe even worse, than the kind of traditional tribalism of a lot of other traditional people.

That is, if you look at the way Americans behaved in Vietnam, with Korea, with Vietnam, with Indonesia in 1965, and all of these other “Holocaust”, quote, unquote, “the American Holocaust” that Chomsky and Wolczak wrote about in their book on Western terrorism, where they came up with about 60 million people murdered by US military and CIA interventions since World War Two.

The ugly American who goes to these places and murders millions of people to try to impose the American way and American hegemony on these cultures. He thinks he’s universalist, and he uses universalist propaganda in his media back home to get the people to imagine that they’re doing something universalist and non-ethnocentric. But there’s nobody more ethnocentric than an arrogant universalist who thinks that his way is the universal way!

And so I kind of question whether this so-called universalism has made Westerners so kind and nice and gentle. You know, when you take those 60 million people that the US murdered since World War Two, then you add another 30 million or so with a post 9/11 era, it seems to me that these kind general universalists are actually a lot more murderous than the tribalists.

Kevin MacDonald: Yeah, the Western culture has always been very militarized and very expansive and also been very inventive and prone to adventurism.

I mean, the Indo-European legacy in Western culture is basically that. And the West has been extremely successful, unlike other cultures when they had been able, … You look at around the world, cultures that have been successful have expanded. They have dominated other peoples and all that.

But the West, you know, there’s these two traditions in the West. One is that Indo-European militarized version, and that is still there to some extent. But you also have now, especially since 1965. I mean, before that, it was anti-communism, and they were very concerned, correctly so.

I mean, the Soviet Union was a dangerous foe, and they were opposing communism, I get it. But especially since 9/11 we’ve had these wars basically for Israel, and we have a new elite in the country. It’s a very aggressive leap. They want to maintain western hegemony desperately. That’s why we’re fighting in Ukraine, and we’re upping the ante now. They’re allowing Ukraine to target Russia. And so, yeah, that’s a part of our reality.

But you think about say, slavery. You know, we, Western conquest in America, then they brought in slaves from Africa and all that.

But, yeah, it was also, Western culture is the only culture that ended it for moral reasons. And this northern European culture of radical individualism. And they condemn slavery in the 19th century, especially the British started there, and they ended slavery in 1831. They abolished the slave trade in 1808 or something like that. And, it’s no other culture. I mean, you look around the world, slavery was endemic to just about every culture in the world.

So Western culture is now being singled out for things that other cultures have done throughout history.

But, yeah, there’s some ethnocentrism there, and it’s just relatively submerged. It’s easily overcome. I mean, you can make, they did this experiment where they had college students come in and they gave them a bunch of questions or pictures, photos, and they said:

“Well, your responses were racist, anti-semitic”.

Or something like that. Boy, when they showed them, when they went through it again, the people responded much more slowly. They don’t want to feel they’re a bad person! And we see that over and over again, especially among women. Women want to fit into the group. They want to be nice people! And now the culture is totally anti-Western, anti-White, anti-European.

Kevin Barrett: Yeah, the culture has certainly gone to extremes lately. Speaking of the tribalism and stuff, I have a good anecdote for you. I’m living in Morocco now, and I’ve had some, let’s say, difficulties working with the local zoning authorities and construction guys, putting up a little room on the top of the house to house a library.

So it’s been quite frustrating. And I talked to a couple of in-laws, a couple of friends, and they talked. They said:

“You know, if you want to get any construction done or any repairs done in Morocco, it’s hopeless! It’s crazy! These people, they’ll eat your lunch, they’ll steal you blind and stuff, and they’ll do a terrible job.”

And so I said:

“Well, so how did you guys get your excellent houses built?”

And they both said:

“Well, my cousin!”

Kevin MacDonald: Exactly!

Kevin Barrett: Yeah. Each of them had hired a cousin one of them had, had to fire the first guy he hired who wasn’t a cousin and bring in his cousin who just happened to show up at the right point.

And you know, that’s, I think, a kind of a common thing around the world. Doesn’t mean that there’s no use of universal dimension to the culture here or in other places where they still have these kinship ties. But it is different from the United States and also Europe today. And these cultural differences are real and you should be allowed to talk about them.

Kevin MacDonald: Yeah, that’s the problem with the third world, is in kinship. If you a job or something like that, you’re expected to., … Well, you expect kin to help you out, you know, as long as you’re related. It’s all about kinship. African cultures are like that. Extremely so!

It happens in Europe, but much less. That’s the thing about Europe. You have these high trust cultures where your reputation group is not dependent on being a relative. It’s dependent on, are you trustworthy, can I do business with you? That sort of thing.

And so you don’t have to rely on your cousin to build your house. And you don’t expect the person to cheat you, that sort of thing. That’s why Western culture has been so successful.

But that’s the problem. It hasn’t stopped in other parts of the world. It’s absolutely hardwired in those cultures. The Middle East, but also Africa. You know, China has always been that way, actually tribal and all that, collectivists. But they seem to be able to square the circle. But there’s a lot of corruption, but they clamp down on it, and the central government, to some extent at least, really does not want that. And they get it about trust.

Kevin Barrett: There are these ideologies, whether universalist or nationalist, that seem to play a role in kind of overcoming the tribalism.

And in fact, in Islamic history, the success of the religion of Islam and the legal system and the weights and measures and the injunctions to fair trade with everybody, not just your relatives, that played a big role in the bringing together of tribal peoples into a super tribe, or a huge world straddling kind of empire where people could trust each other. You could travel from one end of the earth to the other and not be robbed.

So, and I think with China, the ideologies of communism and now kind of Confucian nationalism play that kind of a role.

And then that leaves the question of could the West be saved by some sort of return to the religious roots that actually produced the great works of the West and produced this universalism that seems to have fallen upon hard times now as the West enters its decadent phase.

I just attended a conference in Croatia with Doctor E. Michael Jones and a bunch of Catholics. I was one of the two token Muslims there. And those folks are hoping for a revival of Catholicism to revive the West. I’m a bit skeptical, but I do think that these kinds of religions or greater religious like ideologies are really the only thing that can get people to sacrifice for something bigger than themselves and overcome these pitfalls of tribalism and human nature. But I know you’re not an advocate of that, so why not?

Kevin MacDonald: Well, I’m not religious myself. I just can’t see any evidence for it, you know, sort of scientific. And my basic paradigm is evolution and evolutionary biology, and I just don’t see room for that.

But I can see, I do think that religion is good. I mean you think about the Reconquista in Spain. They were very religious, and they treated the Muslims and threw them out. And European Christianity served Europe well for a very long time. Once you got to the 19th century and science and then, you know, militant Marxism and everything, you know, some of it is jewish, but I think a lot of it isn’t. It’s just the changes in intellectual, the scientific perspective sort of militates against that. And I don’t know!

But I do think if you look at America, religious Conservatives are, you know, mainstay in the Republican Party. You know, I don’t agree with all their substantive things.

I mean, they seem obsessed with abortion. But they’re good on average.

But then you look at the mainstream religions and they’re all into this stuff, and it’s pretty much universal, the Southern Baptist. I mean, the officialdom there. For example, James Edwards is a good guy who’s in Tennessee, political, successful guy. He’s been basically shunned by these people.

And I grew up Catholic and Catholic Church, as far as I can see, the pope is a communist. I mean, he’s way on the Left.

Kevin Barrett: Well, he did just say something about how there’s too much faggotry these day!

Kevin MacDonald: Too much what?

Kevin Barrett: He used to use the slur, the anti-homosexual slur. He said there was too much faggotry in the Church. [chuckling]

Kevin MacDonald: And then he profusely apologized.

Kevin Barrett: Yeah.

Kevin MacDonald: I mean, it is true. But he’s been all in favor of immigration and all that.

Kevin Barrett: Yeah, yeah. That’s why this made such a big splash was its the first thing this pope has ever done that wasn’t politically correct and woke!

Kevin MacDonald: Yeah, exactly!

Kevin Barrett: But, Kevin, don’t you think, though, that the issue here is really that these, you know what’s left of Christianity in the West is mostly just sort of fronting for the real religion of the West, which is secular, progressive, materialist humanisms and that that real religion which has underline all of these kinds of liberal tendencies that you and I both are skeptical about, that actual religion, which involves something overcoming the normal human condition in a kind of pretty extreme submission to something greater than the self and to transcendent values, which is very foreign, of course, to the secular outlook, but also to the kind of these namby pamby liberal religions that we’re talking about today as not being solutions. I agree they’re not. But I think I’ve heard arguments, including from some recent radio show guests, that real religion actually might be the solution.

But the only way it’s ever going to come back is when the civilization collapses and people are fighting for survival in red and tooth and claw.

Kevin MacDonald: Yeah, I mean, this, you know, Western culture has been expansive that we’ve said, and it’s also with capitalism, it’s greedy, materialism, and we want things, and as all humans do. Everybody would be rich than poor, I guess.

Kevin Barrett: Kevin, if you could hold your phone a little stiller, that would be better because we’re getting a lot of, …

Kevin MacDonald: Yeah, it’s what the Western culture is now ugly! You know, I’m rooting for Russia in the Ukraine war because to me, Western culture is completely bankrupt! You know, it’s gone, completely woke.

And if Ukraine would win, you’d have more mass immigration, there would be, religion would take a dive ultimately, and Ukraine would just become another vassal of the West, where traditional Ukrainian culture would be condemned, as there already. There’s a long, fraught history with jews and Ukrainians.

But anyway, you know, that’s the problem. The West is completely corrupt as far as I can see, and it’s not getting any better. In a sense, it is, as you say, I mean, secular humanism, greed, wanting material things and that sort of thing. That’s what we want.

Kevin Barrett: And how about what’s the role of this jewish ethnocentrism that you just wrote about in this new article in The Decline of the West and even a threat of some kind of global tyranny. We know that the mythology of jewish religion involves, as you wrote in the article, kind of these messianic millenarian expectations that the jews will one day triumph over the goyim or all the non-jewish peoples and basically enslave them and rule the earth.

And we do see that jews have become the most powerful ethnic group in the world probably, by taking over the US Empire. And now they’re completely out of control in their own ethno-state over an occupied Palestine and ready to tear down the Islamic world’s oldest and greatest architectural monument, the Al-Aqsa Mosque, and put up a blood sacrifice temple and start sacrificing pink heifers to symbolize this new era in which jews rule the world. And their mythology tells them that every jew will have, I forget how many thousands of goyim slaves.

Now, of course, that all sounds pretty exaggerated and it sounds like a pipe dream, but the role that jews are playing in this process does seem outsized and rather dangerous and destructive, does it not?

Kevin MacDonald: It is very destructive and dangerous. And we see that Israel is continuing this offensive in the south of Gaza now, despite the fact that all these nations, I mean, it’s hard to, I can’t think of any country that’s gung-ho in favor of what Israel’s doing, but they’re just thumbing their nose at it. They don’t care! Your international criminal court, what was the arrest, Netanyahu and all that, it doesn’t matter. They are in the driver’s seat and they know they have America completely in their hands! And that’s the reality. And they will use America as long as they can.

And, yeah, they are in the driver’s seat right now, but we’re not at the end game yet. But, yeah, jewish power is really on display here! I mean, you think of all the European countries, America, the Biden administration even, is condemning what they’re doing. Then they say they’re going to withhold weapons and they don’t really do that.

But anyway, it’s amazing what the power that they have.

Kevin Barrett: Yeah. And it’s kind of just over the top sadistic cruelty in their approach to people of Gaza.

Kevin MacDonald: Oh, yeah!

Kevin Barrett: It’s making ethnocentrism look bad. People like you, Kevin, you’re kind of a White, pro-ethnocentric guy. People like Louis Farrakhan a black, pro-ethnocentric guy. And there are various people who are defending various kinds of ethnocentrism. But what Israel is doing right now is really an embarrassment to ethnocentrism, wouldn’t you say?

Kevin MacDonald: Yeah, I mean, this is extreme ethnocentrism! And it’s what I call hyper-ethnocentrism. And what I would advocate is universal nationalism, that everybody be in their own country and stay there. And that you’d have a sort of ethnic nationalism as a basis of a country.

But, you know, that’s a long way off now, given what’s happened in the West. We used to be, you look at movies here, culture from the 1950s, and it’s a White country and proudly. So the same way with the Western European countries. But now it’s just not there. I don’t see how to get it back without a cataclysm.

And I think the Left wants a cataclysm because they have purged the military and all that, and they are in charge of legal system, as you can see in the Trump verdict, and we’ll see.

But I think we’re headed for a cataclysm or else the West just goes down with a whimper.

Kevin Barrett: Yeah, well, my second hour guest today on this radio show is Fadi Lama, who wrote Why the West Can’t Win. And his analysis is that Western central bankers have presided over this expanding Western empire, of course, expanded during the colonial period, and now he thinks they’re going all out for a kind of a global takeover. And he thinks it’s going to fail. And that this nationalist alliance of multipolar nationalist forces led by Iran, Russia and China is likely to prevail over the Western banksters.

So if that’s the case, then the world that you want to see, which would be a world of multipolar sovereign nation states where each people is relatively unto itself and free to be itself, and then to deal with other peoples, hopefully in a reasonable manner, unlike what the Israelis are doing right now, that world is coming. But at what cost to the Euro-American countries that are losing the struggle, is the question.

Kevin MacDonald: Yeah, absolutely! I’m happy to see this other bloc forming. And Western globalism really means Western hegemony and control over the rest of the world via the economics, the banks and all that.

So, yeah, that’s why I favor Russia in the war. And I look favorably on Russia’s ties with Iran and China. And if you’re a country like Iran or Russia or China, you have to know what’s going on in the West. You know that you have this Western elite that really wants to control everything. And this globalist phenomenon is backed by a US military, and it’s not going away.

And that’s why Ukraine is seen as an existential issue for both sides. Russia and United States and Western Europe, I think. They see that if the West does not prevail in Ukraine, that Russia will really take off.

And I noticed in Georgia, the country of Georgia, they had this law, they just enacted the law, I guess, that prevents these foreign NGO’s from, … They have to register and say how much of the money is coming from the West. And they have to disclose all their sources. Well, this is a big source of the Western power. That’s why Putin clamped down on that. The West is where the money is.

So all these NGO’s, they go in there and they propagandise for pro-Western stuff and immigration and all this Leftist stuff and color revolution.

Kevin Barrett: Don’t forget that. What they want to LGBTQ, all that kind of thing.

Kevin MacDonald: Yeah, exactly! It’s going to happen in Ukraine, if Ukraine wins and Russia loses. This is existential! But that’s the danger here, that both sides here see it as existential. Well, then you’re heading for a World War, nuclear war, a disaster for humanity!

I mean, I don’t see how this ends now. Biden just allowing Ukraine to strike targets in Russia with American missiles? I mean, this is really serious!

Kevin Barrett: That was supposed to be a red line, wasn’t it?

Kevin MacDonald: Yeah, that was a red line and not anymore.

And so they keep erasing these lines:

“Oh, we won’t give them this, won’t give them that!”

And they give it to them eventually. And because they do not want to lose this! They realize that sanctions have not worked because of the alliances, really, Iran and China and other countries. India is favorable to them to some extent anyway. And Brazil, other countries like that they just look at where the power is and where it’s going to go.

But yeah, they understand that the West is [word unclear] about destroying all their cultures and really all their peoples. And one hodge-podge of humanity. And I just think that would be a disaster!

Kevin Barrett: What do you think is the reason that the Western elites are choosing such a seemingly wrong headed strategy from their own point of view? In terms of both, they’re watering down their own cultures and harming their own cultures and their own military capacity through all sorts of policies. The various woke policies and so on.

And then rather than a sort of a sensible policy of trying to sort of contain, say, China and then make nice with Russia and Iran while you try to contain China, and then if you ever have to shift a little bit and contain Russia, then you make nice with China a little bit. That kind of sensible strategic policy which characterized the US during the Cold War, to a certain extent, they’ve thrown that away and now they’re trying to go to war against Russia, China and Iran all at once driving them into each other’s arms, even as they tear apart their own societies.

It’s almost as if they have some kind of death wish and they want to go down in flames. How do you explain that?

Kevin MacDonald: Yeah, I’m wondering, … But part of it is, I think, jewish hatred towards the West. You know, they think in terms of what happened in the Middle Ages, they think in terms of the destruction of the temple by the Romans. The pogroms in Russia in the 19th century, as they see them, and of course, in the Holocaust.

And it’s like Western culture is to them is absolutely the real [word unclear]. And these people, it’s always the extremists that end up dominating what direction the jewish community goes in.

And right now, the extreme ethocentrism is on display! And to some extent, most of it went to Israel. But they’re an awful lot in the United States. And jewish power in the United States, you see now, like, for example, pro-Palestinian protests on universities, they’re getting arrested and all that they would never do that for Black Lives Matter in the same way.

And so they’re really clamping down. And anyone who supports the Palestinians, they’re going to have a hard time getting a job on Wall Street or in the media and all that.

So, yeah, they have the power right now, and they are using it.

Kevin Barrett: And that will provoke a reaction. And we’ve seen throughout history that when jewish communities went too far in their sharp practices towards the majority societies, they suddenly faced a big backlash.

Kevin MacDonald: Yeah

Kevin Barrett: And I’m wondering if some of these students are going to suddenly go from being Left-wing, woke pro-Palestine multiculturalists to saying:

“You know, I think Kevin MacDonald actually might have a point about the jews.”

Kevin MacDonald: Yeah. Yeah, I think that jews have always felt that they can manage, you know, Muslim immigration, Palestinian immigration, all that they had enough power to manage it.

And right now they do. I mean, they’re clamping down these protests. But they do see there’s some in Congress now who are pro-Palestinian. And so this policy of letting Muslims come into Europe, say, has backfired for the jews to some extent, a great extent. And you see all these articles about how jews are saying:

“Muslims are our allies!”

And the [chuckling] question is what are their allies against?

And of course, they’re allies against the White majority.

But now that’s breaking down. And so many of the immigrants into Europe are Muslim and they really don’t like to choose and they don’t, …

Kevin Barrett: Quick question. Yeah. I think you’re right that a lot of the Muslim immigrants in Europe are the ones who are supporting the pro-Palestine protests and things like that. But do you think there’s any kind of qualitative difference or meaningful difference between so-called Muslim immigrants in Europe and, let’s say, sub-Saharan Africans from non-Muslim backgrounds, whether Christian, animist or secular, what have you.

That is, I found this whole emphasis on the Muslim identity and the Islamic religion to be very deceptive, given that the kinds of problems that immigrants have created in these societies are actually problems that you’re going to see more from the less religious, the more secular elements, whether they’re sub-Saharan African from Christian backgrounds, or whether they’re northern African from Muslim backgrounds. It’s not the religious people that you have to worry about. It’s the non-religious ones.

Kevin MacDonald: Well, I don’t know. I think Muslim religion certainly is a big unifying, motivating factor for Muslims.

But you talk about sub-Saharan Africa, you know, they’re really talking about a low IQ, criminality prone population that will never really contribute anything to any functioning society.

Kevin Barrett: Wait a minute! I played basketball with a bunch of guys from both northern Africa and sub-Saharan Africa when I went to the University of Paris. And there were some very sharp college students from sub-Saharan Africa were playing on that basketball team, actually. So I don’t over generalize to that extent.

Kevin MacDonald: Well, there may be some, and there are, but you look at overall the average, and that’s critical, actually! And we see black culture has basically failed in this country despite the fact that there are some intelligent ones. Just look at it and it’s an academic disaster! And I just don’t see it.

They’ve tried to improve black academic achievement for decades now, since the sixties, with no success, really. And it’s getting worse. I think there’s actually selection now for that the people having children, … You know, these black women who are going to college and assuming all these high level positions, they’re not having children, very many children at least. Whereas the ghetto moms are having a lot of kids, relatively.

Kevin Barrett: Yeah. Well, hasn’t the breakdown of the black family is the biggest reason for all of this.

Kevin MacDonald: It’s a huge factor. Yeah, that was an effect of the 1960s. You look at the charts, because I used to teach child psychology every semester I look at these charts in my textbook, and they would be in the 1950s, very strong family structure.

And then all of a sudden in the sixties, everybody went south! But blacks much more than anybody else. They were sort of unleashed, you might say, from the social control. We couldn’t just get on welfare so easily. And those single mothers were not really supported that much. You had to have a man around. But not anymore. It hasn’t been that way for a long time! And it’s not changing.

Kevin Barrett: Religion, again, getting back to that topic, plays a role in this, in that the religious cultures typically put a strong emphasis on these kinds of family values and taboos on sexuality outside of reproductive marriage.

And so when that breaks down, then you get a breakdown of the culture and you have a lot of unwed mothers, etcetera. Once again, my argument is that religion is an indispensable part of civilized humanity, that giving it up for transcendent value is really necessary overall. There might be a few people who can do okay without that. But for the culture as a whole, it needs that. It needs to be infused with a traditional way of doing that.

Kevin MacDonald: You’re probably right. I think that’s a reasonable thing to say. I think most people seem to need religion for social support and moral compass and sort of meaning to their lives and all that. I agree.

Kevin Barrett: Wow! Just like I won an argument with Doctor E. Michael Jones last week. Actually, won an argument with Kevin MacDonald! Again, not too many people can say that. [chuckling]

All right, we only have a couple, couple of minutes left here. Well, you know, Kevin, we’re with two minutes left.

What can be done to stop this butchery in Gaza?

Kevin MacDonald: I just don’t know. Because the Israelis have free reign and they don’t care what anybody else thinks. And the Right militants, settlers, aggressive ones, they’re in charge. And they don’t care what anybody else thinks.

And I think they do think that over time it’ll blow over. They’ll do something for the Palestinians, or they’ll let them emigrate or something. The West will give in. Jordan, these other countries will give in, and they’ll let them come in. And they’ll just get rid of them!

And then Israeli settlers will set their sights on Jordan, and then they’ll set their sight., … You know, I believe they’re an expansive culture. And Gaza is just part of it. They want that land, and I think there will be jewish settlements back in the Gaza. You know, there were until 2000, was it three or something? When the Israeli army withdrew and all that, to great controversy, at which point they became an open air prison.

But yeah, it’s a very expansive, aggressive group, always has been. And we’ll see where it ends. And I think that maybe the rest of the world may start stand up to them at some point.

Kevin Barrett: Yeah, well, I think it’s definitely at or even past the point that that needs to start happening.

Kevin MacDonald: Yeah, I’d say so!

Kevin Barrett: If they really think that we’re going to just roll over and forget all this. Come on, guys. You know, the Nakba* of 1947, 1948 has not been forgotten!

[* The Nakba (Arabic: النَّكْبَة an-Nakba, lit. ’the catastrophe’) is the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians through their violent displacement and dispossession of land, property, and belongings, along with the destruction of their society and the suppression of their culture, identity, political rights, and national aspirations. The term is used to describe the events of the 1948 Palestine war as well as the ongoing persecution and displacement of Palestinians by Israel. As a whole, it covers the fracturing of Palestinian society and the long-running rejection of the right of return for Palestinian refugees and their descendants. Source: Wikipedia]

And today’s people are telling stories about what happened to their grandparents and great grandparents and they’re keeping that memory alive. And so what’s happening in Gaza now, that memory is going to be kept alive forever and it’s going to come back to bite the perpetrators.

Well, thank you so much, Kevin MacDonald. It’s always great to talk with you. A true original thinker and a fearless thinker! Keep up the good work.

Take care.

Kevin MacDonald: Thank you. Bye.

Kevin Barrett: That’s Kevin MacDonald, a fellow academic heretic from the University of Wisconsin. That’s where he went as well as where I got chased out of for talking about 9/11 in the way that certain folks didn’t like.

All right, we’ll be back in the next hour, God willing, with Fati Lama talking about why the West can’t win!

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