Introduction
This book consists of exchanges I have had with people on YouTube over the past few months (it is March 2016 as I write this). The subject was geocentricity. In case you don’t know, geocentricity is the theory that Earth is stationary at the center of the universe. Yes, believe it or not, in the modern world there are still people who actually advocate such a model of the universe. And as I’ve discovered, many people have an irrational hatred for anyone who dares to so much as utter the word “geocentricity.” Only stupid, whacked out, scientifically illiterate, Bible-thumping, delusional, insane, anti-science, murderous, pedophilic, ignorant, conspiracy-theorists could possibly believe Earth is at the center of the universe. Despite the fact that, according to Einstein, from the viewpoint of an observer stationary relative to the Earth, it is perfectly valid to say that Earth is stationary at the center of the universe. But of course, if you ask most modern relativists, I just told you a bald-faced lie. Einstein would never have said such a thing.
But I didn’t lie. I told you the bald-faced truth. It’s a truth which most of Einstein’s supporters do not like to admit. In some cases, they don’t even seem to be aware that their own theory actually supports geocentricity, because it MUST.
But this brief introduction isn’t the actual debate, so I’ll save the arguments for later.
A couple of the usernames herein have been reduced to initials, to protect the innocent and all that.
I myself do not know who any of the persons I interacted with are in “real life.” I don’t know their credentials or the level of their scientific literacy. So I make no claim as to the veracity of anything they say. If you’re uncertain of any of their claims, do your own research into what they’re saying. The same goes for anything I say. Never accept anything at face value, no matter which side is saying it or how much authority they appear to have.
It should also be noted that, where possible, this book is being given away for free. I am not doing this book for money. The price of the paperback version is basically just the cost of manufacturing charged by the printer.
Also, the fact that my comments appeared in any given YouTube video’s comments section does not mean that I in any way endorse or agree with what is being said in any specific video. It just means that I watched the video and perused its comments section, and therein found comments to which I felt like responding.
Hopefully the format of the debates is easy to follow. I use the label “[someone] wrote:” and then present what they wrote, exactly as it is posted on YouTube, without any editing, spelling or grammar correction. In most cases, the statement of the opponent is in quotes, followed by the response. Should be pretty self-evident once you start reading.
Also, occasionally there will be instances of +ScottReeves, or +CoolHardLogic, etc. This is the Google+ system, and simply identifies the user at whom the subsequent commentary is directed.
For anyone who is interested, I have numerous videos of my own on my YouTube channel that further expand on my thoughts on the subject of geocentricity and the pseudo-science that is Relativity. That channel is Youtube.com/user/TheBigScaboo. The videos may also be found on archive.org, using my name as the search term.
I want to stress that this book is by no means a comprehensive treatise on the subject of geocentricity, and I urge every reader to do an in-depth study into the subject and come to your own conclusions regarding it.
I want to thank everyone who took the time to enter the arena with me. I had fun doing this, and the opposition helped me to clarify my own stance on geocentricity. I think these were good debates on both sides.
Lastly I would like to congratulate the obvious victor: absolute Geocentricity.
**
Appendix I
Geocentrists are anti-science.
Untrue. Geocentrists have very scientific and reasonable rebuttals for everything anti-geocentrists can throw at them. Geocentrists are very pro-science in their insistence that people who call themselves scientists should actually stick to science and accept the observational evidence at face value: Earth is at the center of the universe. Let’s have none of this pseudo-scientific mumbo-jumbo about every point being at the center of its universe.
Modern technology wouldn’t work if Earth were at the center of the universe.
Why is that? Exactly which technology wouldn’t work if Earth were at the center of the universe? The prime one that is usually put forth in support of this foolish statement is GPS. But as shown previously in this book, the GPS corrections are predicted by absolute Geocentricity as well as Relativity, and both use exactly the same equations to correct the GPS clocks. So which other technology wouldn’t work if Earth were at the center of the universe? Tell me. Which technology? The answer is: ALL of our technology would work if Earth were at the center of the universe. If some of our technology wouldn’t work in an Earth-centered universe, then that means Earth is in a demonstrably inferior place in the universe, which is just as deadly to Relativity as Earth being in a superior place. So if even a single piece of our technology did not work in an Earth-centered universe, Relativity would be an invalid theory, which is okay by me, since that has been my contention all along. Either way, for me, geocentricity is a disproof of Relativity. Anyone making the statement that modern technology wouldn’t work if Earth were at the center of the universe is actually taking a stand against Einstein. If people are happy taking such a stand, more power to them. Welcome to the club, here is your ID card.
The fact is that all our technology would work if Earth were at the center of the universe. There would just be a different dominant theory used to explain the science behind that technology.
And anyway, you’ll often hear several versions of this argument. One says that modern technology wouldn’t work if Relativity were invalid. Another says that modern technology wouldn’t work if quantum mechanics were invalid. Yet another says that modern technology wouldn’t work if Earth were at the center of the universe. The latter statement sort of rolls into the one about modern technology not working if Relativity were invalid, since if Earth is absolutely at the center of the universe, then Relativity is invalid. So basically we’re left with the two statements about modern technology not working without quantum mechanics or Relativity. So which statement is true? Because, as physicist Brian Greene was quoted elsewhere in this book, “As they are currently formulated, general relativity and quantum mechanics cannot both be right” (The Elegant Universe, pg 3)
So depending upon which bit of technology you’re claiming is based upon Relativity, and which bit is based upon quantum mechanics, some portion of our modern technology should not be working. And yet it does. So any statement that begins “Modern technology wouldn’t work if…” is a fallacious statement, regardless of whatever follows the if.
Geocentrists are all religious kooks who only believe it based upon their need for God and a literal interpretation of the Bible.
This is demonstrably untrue. Myself being a prime example. Read back through this book and show where I presented a religious argument in favor of absolute Geocentricity. Geocentricity has plenty of non-religious arguments in its favor if one cares to look beyond his/her mockery and actually do in-depth research into the subject. I challenge anyone reading this book, who has what they deem to be a valid natural phenomenon that contradicts geocentricity, to actually search for the scientific, geocentric explanation for the phenomenon. Because I guarantee you it is out there, and presented in great detail. And it’s most likely an absolute Geocentric explanation, because relativistic geocentrists seem to have dropped the ball on finding relativistic geocentric explanations for a whole host of phenomena. To hear all the people I debated with explain it, they have no workable geocentric explanations for earthquakes, satellites, the orbiting sun, Focault’s pendulum, etc – all things for which relativists damn well better find geocentric explanations if they want to claim that Relativity is a valid theory. So get cracking, all you relativists reading this.
Also, it is no more true that all geocentrists are religious kooks than it is true that all scientists are atheists. And if all scientists did in fact happen to be atheists, it would no more constitute proof that their theories were correct than it would constitute a disproof of geocentricity if all its proponents were religious. Only the empirical support for a theory is decisive, not the number or philosophy of the theory’s proponents. And geocentricity is at least as equally well supported by the empirical evidence as any other theory. If you disagree with that statement, you are both an anti-Relativist and an anti-geocentrist. And if you are correct in your disagreement, I win, because being an anti-Relativist is what leads me to absolute Geocentricity. If they’re both incorrect, let’s start looking for the correct theory of reality.
**
Scott Reeves vs. Ex Epsylon
Comments on YouTube video Gravitational Wave Hoax - LIGO fake blind injection discovery by Russ Brown
https://youtu.be/0ed1Uqx9tQE
A quick note on the following. Ex Epsylon’s comment came in at the last minute, as I was formatting this book. At that point, I had pretty much decided I had made my points, was tired of debating, and so had decided to “hang up my hat” for the time being. Thus, I did not post my response to Ex Epsylon on YouTube, since as I’ve said I had already decided to take a break from debating, and figured that posting a reply would only elicit further response, responses to which I would feel compelled to respond…and the debate would continue. So the following “debate” is very short, and my response can be found only in this book. This isn’t any sort of a comment on Ex Epsylon; I would have welcomed debating him – if only he had chimed in earlier. Who knows? Maybe after a few months I will jump back into the fray, and further debate with Ex Epsylon will appear in a Volume 2.
Ex Epsylon wrote (in response to my earlier comments to MomoTheBellyDancer):
But of course Earth is the center of EARTH’s observable universe +Scott Reeves, as from somewhere in the Sombrero galaxy the center of the observable universe will be the Sombrero galaxy, nobody disputes your Lapalissade.
But it has nothing to do with either the geometric or the gravitational center of the universe, that might or might not be in the same region, due to possible differences in mass distribution throughout the entire physical universe. But if we agree on the validity of the Big Bang / Big Bounce theory they should both reside in the vicinity of the point of origin of space-time.
You have quite an hypocrite attitude in this debate, you switch from hard science to points of semantics as it suits you best.
Try to maintain at least some intellectual honesty please, it’s very difficult not to dismiss your assertions out of hand otherwise.
Scott Reeves wrote (but didn’t post to YouTube):
“But of course Earth is the center of EARTH’s observable universe +Scott Reeves, as from somewhere in the Sombrero galaxy the center of the observable universe will be the Sombrero galaxy, nobody disputes your Lapalissade.”
That is what mainstream theories hypothesize. But that hypothesis has yet to be tested. Would an observer in the Sombrero galaxy be able to see 28 million light years beyond the edge of Earth’s observable universe? Or is an observer in the Sombrero galaxy just 28 million light years closer to the actual edge of the entire universe, and thus observably NOT at the center of his/her/its own observable universe? Let’s all travel to the Sombrero galaxy, set up a telescope and find out. In other words, let’s do some actual science, instead of sitting on Earth and making unsubstantiated claims about what non-Earth-based observers will see when they look at the universe.
“But if we agree on the validity of the Big Bang / Big Bounce theory”
We don’t. Unless the Big Bang theory can accommodate the observational evidence of Earth’s central position at face value. Which the standard version can’t, because it assumes, and depends upon, the validity of both the Copernican and the cosmological principles. Those are assumptions I’m not willing to make. The Big Bang theory as currently formulated depends upon the existence of a larger universe beyond Earth’s observable universe (i.e. “from somewhere in the Sombrero galaxy the center of the observable universe will be the Sombrero galaxy”). Therefore, for the Big Bang to be a properly scientific theory, scientists from Earth need to go to the edge of Earth’s observable universe and confirm that they can see a universe beyond. None of this unscientific attitude of, “Oh, we know what we would see if we did such a thing, so we don’t need to do it.”
“You have quite an hypocrite attitude in this debate, you switch from hard science to points of semantics as it suits you best.”
Give an example of where I am arguing points of semantics, please.
And anyway, semantics are important. For example, if you say you disagree with THE geocentric model, you’re saying something completely different than if say that you disagree with A geocentric model. Because there are actually two models: the relativistic geocentric model, and the absolute Geocentric model. If you say you disagree with the geocentric model, you’re being very imprecise. Which geocentric model do you disagree with? You could be illustrating your ignorance of Relativity, or you could be taking an anti-Relativist position, in which case you’re rejecting the relativistic geocentric model and advocating the absolute Geocentric model. So if that’s the sort of thing you mean by your claim that I’m arguing semantics, then you’re incorrect. I’m not arguing semantics. I’m exposing an imprecise choice of words on the part of my opponents that masks the fact that my opponents don’t actually understand their own position on the subject, and shows their ignorance regarding what the true argument is. The argument isn’t about the truth of geocentricity itself, but rather about exactlywhich sort of geocentric universe we live in
“Try to maintain at least some intellectual honesty please”
Since when does insistence upon strict adherence to the scientific method equate to lack of intellectual honesty? You’ve got it exactly backward. Anti-geocentrists, a group which should not include anyone who supports Relativity, but oddly enough, it does, are the ones who aren’t being intellectually honest.
***
Scott Reeves vs. Enorbet2
Comments on the YouTube video “Gravitational Wave Hoax - LIGO fake blind injection discovery” by Russ Brown
NOTE: When I went back to the above video to get the beginning of this debate with Enorbet2 for the Second Edition of this book, I found that the video had been deleted, so all the comments are lost as well. I present here the portion of the debate which I had previously saved as it was in progress. If I recall correctly, it began when Enorbet2 commented on one of my comments to another user, claiming that none of my arguments were valid because they were based entirely on religion and the Bible, which comment I obviously rejected.
Enorbet2 wrote:
+Scott Reeves - My apologies. I did misinterpret one of your responses here. I do see no evidence once I looked deeper that you are a religious zealot. That said, you can’t hold Einstein up to ridicule in one (actually more than one) post and then defend your position with him because of the point of view of the observer reference. Because it is impossible to test anything outside of the Observable Universe and the actual Universe could be vastly larger there is no way to refute geocentrism beyond that the odds are incredibly low EXCEPT “because it was Created that way”.. Perhaps now you can see why I did indeed jump to a conclusion. It still doen’t make your point and despite denial does remain a possibility that underneath it all, Religion is what drives your POV.
Scott Reeves wrote:
“That said, you can’t hold Einstein up to ridicule in one (actually more than one) post and then defend your position with him because of the point of view of the observer reference.”
I’m actually not using Einstein to defend absolute Geocentricity. I know Relativity forbids an absolute reference frame. I only use Einstein to get people to realize that to argue against any form of geocentrism is to argue against Relativity itself, which I assume most anti-geocentrists don’t want to do. Einstein KNEW that Relativity MUST allow a relative geocentricity, and that in Relativity, a geocentric observer is equal to any other observer. Einstein knew this, but most people who claim to understand Relativity DON’T seem to know this. We are either in an absolute Geocentric universe, or a Relativistic geocentric universe. I’m using Einstein in an attempt to get people to realize that the argument isn’t “Are we in a geocentric universe?” but “Which type of geocentric universe are we in?” Anti-geocentrists are making a mistake when they argue “No way, no how are we in a geocentric universe, and here’s all the reasons why Earth can’t be stationary at the center of the universe.” Excuse me, but the Earth CAN be stationary at the center of the universe. The only question is whether it is such only from the viewpoint of a geocentric observer, or whether it absolutely is at the center. If you can present observations that can’t be explained by a geocentric observer solely in terms of his geocentric frame, then you have just invalidated Relativity. Because as you say in your very next sentence:
“Because it is impossible to test anything outside of the Observable Universe and the actual Universe could be vastly larger there is no way to refute geocentrism”
It’s not that there is no way to refute geocentrism, but that there is no way to support Relativity. The only way we are in a non-absolute geocentric universe is if Relativity is a valid theory, and the only way that Relativity can be a valid theory is if we can empirically observe something beyond our observable universe, which as you have admitted is impossible. So we are at the center of our observable universe, and we can observe nothing beyond that. Therefore our observable universe is the entire universe as far as empirical science is concerned, and therefore Earth is observably at the center of the entire universe. Conclusion: we are in an absolute Geocentric universe, and Relativity is a pseudo-science, depending as it does upon the existence of a larger universe beyond our observable universe, a larger universe that cannot be empirically observed.
“there is no way to refute geocentrism beyond that the odds are incredibly low EXCEPT ‘because it was Created that way’”
How do we know that the odds are incredibly low that Earth would be at the center of the universe? Unless we know all there is to know about how the universe works, we cannot possibly know the odds of Earth being at the center. It could be that for some reason currently unknown to us, the center of the universe is more conducive to the evolution of life than parts more distant from the center. In which case, it would be MORE likely that we should find ourselves at the center. Which would also explain why we’ve found no evidence of extraterrestrial, extra-solar, life. There might be no one else in the universe, because there is only one center, which could be a sort of “ultimate Goldilocks Zone.” Maybe a non-moving Earth provides a more stable environment in which life can evolve.
So “because it was Created that way” doesn’t even need to come into play, because we can’t possibly know if the odds are actually against Earth being at the center of the universe, UNLESS we work under the arrogant assumption that we have a complete and perfect understanding of how the universe works. As far as our current understanding of the universe stands, I have AT LEAST as much justification to claim that the odds are against life evolving anywhere but at the center as you do to claim that the odds are against Earth being at the center of the universe. If the center is the most conducive place for the evolution of life, then the odds are actually in favor of us being here at the center.
So again, with me, religion has nothing to do with my adherence to Geocentricity. I would believe in God either way. Earth’s position in the universe is completely irrelevant to my belief in God.
Enorbet 2 wrote:
+Scott Reeves - Thank you as well for your civility and at least attempting logic. However you do jump to conclusions prematurely and conveniently deny the preponderance of evidence in others.
Just as if we confine ourselves to earthbound systems Newton’s Laws work perfectly, if we confine ourselves to the Observable Universe Einstein’s Theories, including both General and Special Relativity, especially above the sub-atomic level, also work perfectly and have so for almost 100 years of incredible advancement he could not have imagined in his wildest fever dreams. Nobody has refuted Relativity, it does not depend at all on the Universe outside our view, and to bank on it’s being “pseudo-scince” is frankly absurd considering how many man/hours have been spent trying to falsify it.
Regarding the Observable Universe, please remember that it is 13.8 Billion years old, and due to Inflation appears in a sphere to us of a diameter of roughly 46 Billion light years - unimaginably vast -, and everywhere we look, in any direction, no matter how far distant in either Time or Space, everything is made of the same stuff and obeys the same rules with the single exception of...well, singularities. They don’t play a part in The Center. Even given our pitiful means of detection we have now catalogued over 1,000 exoplanets so it seems safe to assume that planets are commonplace which implies that trillions of planets must exist in our Galaxy alone..... and that’s just one galaxy of trillions. What are the odds that ANY ONE OF THEM is at the center, let alone ours? Yup, infinitesimally small yet you consider such odds little or no problem to any conclusion.
You just recently brought Life into the discussion and while we have no end result evidence just yet we do see the organic building blocks of Life, even only as we define it (likely a bit myopic and anthropomorphic) everywhere, even in nebulae, the Kuiper Belt and Oort Cloud, so the odds that Life is ubiquitous are rather high. It is entirely possible, maybe even likely, that within the next 20-30 years life will be found on Mars which will drive those odds up astronomically. It’s too soon to leap to conclusions yet, but so far, these are the odds and NONE of them point to Geocentrism.
Foe me calling that Science is just like the attempted switch from Creationism to so-called Intelligent Design, another religious ploy to bolster an institution that just can’t keep up outside of Blind Faith.
Scott Reeves wrote:
“if we confine ourselves to the Observable Universe Einstein’s Theories, including both General and Special Relativity, especially above the sub-atomic level, also work perfectly”
‘Relativity works perfectly within certain bounds’ means that Relativity does not work perfectly, period. And it doesn’t even work perfectly within those bounds. Dark matter and dark energy being prime examples. At the very best, Relativity, both Special and General, is a flawed theory, and likely won’t be in its present form when the so-called Theory of Everything is found. If it is ever found. Which it probably won’t be, given that mainstream scientists are working under faulty assumptions about the universe and Earth’s place within it.
“Nobody has refuted Relativity,”
Assuming for the sake of argument that nobody has refuted Relativity, nobody has done such because doing so involves gathering observations from outside our geocentric reference frame, and at a cosmologically significant distance from Earth. Until that is done, any observations gathered that allegedly support Relativity actually only support a geocentric reference frame. That’s why nobody has refuted geocentricity.
“it [Relativity] does not depend at all on the Universe outside our view,”
It absolutely does depend upon the universe outside our view. As per the Copernican and Cosmological Principles, as well as observation, we’re at the center of our observable universe. And if our observable universe is all that there is, then an observer on a planet at the edge of our observable universe would not see a universe beyond our edge (or our horizon, as I suppose you would call it), in violation of both those Principles, and we would literally be at the center of the entire universe, thereby invalidating Relativity.
“and to bank on it’s being “pseudo-scince” is frankly absurd considering how many man/hours have been spent trying to falsify it.”
Man hours that have been spent trying to falsify it from within a geocentric reference frame. The true question is whether we’re in an absolutely Geocentric universe, or a relatively geocentric universe. We’ve gathered a lot of observations from within our geocentric reference frame. Now let’s go out into the universe and try to falsify Relativity at a cosmologically significant distance from Earth. Until that has been done, Relativity has not been properly put through the scientific method.
“Regarding the Observable Universe, please remember that it is 13.8 Billion years old, and due to Inflation appears in a sphere to us of a diameter of roughly 46 Billion light years”
According to a theory that is in opposition to absolute Geocentrism. A theory that makes a lot of assumptions when measuring distances beyond a certain distance from Earth. And assuming the 13.8 billion year figure is correct, anything beyond 13.8 billion light years from Earth cannot exist as far as Science is concerned, since anything beyond that distance cannot be empirically observed. So this sphere of roughly 46 billion light years in diameter is nothing more than speculation, and that’s what it will always be. As far as Science can be concerned, Earth is at the center of a sphere roughly 27 billion light years in diameter. According to one interpretation of redshift.
So Relativity does indeed depend upon the existence of an unobservable universe beyond 13.8 billion light years, because if that unobservable universe does not exist, then we are at the center of the entire universe. To avoid this situation, Relativity must hypothesize that, if we were to consult with extraterrestrials on a far distant planet, we would find that they have always been able to observe a universe beyond Earth’s observable universe, and are at the center of their own observable universe. This hypothesis has not yet been tested. And since it has not been, there is no evidence that Earth is not at the center of the entire universe.
“What are the odds that ANY ONE OF THEM is at the center, let alone ours? Yup, infinitesimally small yet you consider such odds little or no problem to any conclusion. ”
That’s because I don’t accept your calculation of the odds. From a religious viewpoint, if God created the universe, then the odds of our being at the center make no difference. And from a non-religious, no-God viewpoint, we don’t know enough about precisely how the universe began, about what the exact initial conditions were, to calculate the odds with any degree of accuracy. Until we know exactly how both we and the universe got here, any talk of odds is worthless. Also, again from the no-God perspective, if we’re at the center of the entire universe, then either we won the cosmological lottery, or for some reason the odds weren’t actually against us being here in the first place. All the way around, the argument that it is against the odds fails.
“…so the odds that Life is ubiquitous are rather high.”
Maybe the odds are high given what we THINK we know now. But we don’t know what we don’t know, and we don’t know HOW MUCH we don’t know. And given how vast the universe is, the amount we don’t know is probably vast as well. Given that, I would bet that our calculations of the odds regarding anything in the universe are woefully inaccurate. There is just too much uncertainty in our knowledge to even remotely calculate the odds of anything, cosmologically speaking.
“It is entirely possible, maybe even likely, that within the next 20-30 years life will be found on Mars which will drive those odds up astronomically.”
It is possible. It’s also entirely possible that we’ll harness anti-gravity and Star Trek-level teleportation in the next century or so. But until those things, including the discovery of extraterrestrial life, actually happen, they’re not refutations of my arguments. Sure it’s possible I’ll be proven wrong in the future. But until I am, it’s equally possible that new evidence will come to light that will prove you wrong instead.
And even if life is discovered on Mars or anywhere else in our solar system, it really says nothing about my idea that the center of the universe could be some sort of Goldilocks Zone, since anything within our solar system is within cosmological spitting distance of the center, and the Zone could encompass nearby space. The true test would be the discovery of extra-solar life.
“It’s too soon to leap to conclusions yet, but so far, these are the odds and NONE of them point to Geocentrism.”
They are the odds as calculated by someone with a particular worldview and a foolish (in my view) faith that modern science has gathered enough knowledge of this vast universe to make a reasonable calculation about the odds. So it is no wonder that none of those odds point to Geocentrism.
On the other hand, if Life is as ubiquitous as you theorize it must be, then the odds are high that Life would evolve on Earth regardless of whether the Earth is or is not at the center of the universe. If Life is ubiquitous, then the odds are high that ANY planet at the center would have life. And asking why that life is us rather than some other life is pointless. It then merely becomes a question of what the odds are that there would be a planet at the center of the universe, if the universe indeed has a center.
And if the universe has no center, then the odds that we would be there are irrelevant, since there would be no center to be at.
So the true question is, Does the universe have a center? Well, is there any physical reason why it wouldn’t or couldn’t have a center? No. Our observable universe has a center, and to get us out of that center, mainstream scientists must appeal to the existence of a larger universe that will never be observable to anyone from Earth. In other words, a larger universe that cannot be empirically observed, and is thus beyond the scope of rational scientific inquiry. Making any theory that depends upon the existence of that larger universe a pseudoscience.
Enorbet2 wrote:
I’m truly sorry to have to say so but your “logic” is so flawed I won’t even attempt to show you where beyond the dure contradiction that you indict scientists for embracing “flawed assumption” without enough evidence, yet you embrace flawed assumptions with almost NO evidence, not the least of which is that the Earth is not at the center of our Solar system and the Sun is not at the center of our Galaxy, let alone the entire universe.
Your arguments are Straw Men and your logic horribly flawed. Sorry. I won’t continue for “A mind convinced against it’s will, remains unconvinced still” and you simply resist anything that counters your Sacred Cows with zero regard for the preponderance of evidence, much like Native Australians resist the DNA evidence that shows they descended from brave explorers who crossed some 100 miles of ocean in dugout canoes in favor of “having sprung from the ground in Australia”.
Scott Reeves wrote:
“I’m truly sorry to have to say so but your “logic” is so flawed I won’t even attempt to show you where beyond the dure contradiction that you indict scientists for embracing “flawed assumption” without enough evidence,”
Don’t be sorry for saying it. Merely saying something does not make it objectively true. Without any attempt to show where my logic is flawed, your assertion that my logic is flawed is no more true than my counter-assertion that my logic is sound.
“…not the least of which is that the Earth is not at the center of our Solar system and the Sun is not at the center of our Galaxy, let alone the entire universe.”
So the only evidence you’re willing to give that my logic is flawed is that Earth isn’t at the center of our solar system, and the Sun isn’t at the center of the galaxy. Why would either or both of those conditions have to be true for Earth to be at the center of the universe? That’s like saying Lebanon, Kansas can’t possibly be at the center of the United States because it’s not at the center of Kansas.
“Sorry. I won’t continue for “A mind convinced against it’s will, remains unconvinced still” and you simply resist anything that counters your Sacred Cows with zero regard for the preponderance of evidence,”
That’s fine if you don’t want to continue. But you do realize that from my viewpoint, everything you said about a mind convinced and Sacred Cows actually applies to you? And I don’t mean that in a name-cally, I-know-you-are-but-what-am-I sort of way. The very fact that you would make such an accusation shows that you entered the debate with the assumption that you were utterly correct and were expecting me to come around to your viewpoint. “Well, I presented all this inarguable evidence, and the nut just wouldn’t come around to my side.” It also is an implicit claim that you have no Sacred Cows of your own.
Perhaps you believe of yourself, “I’m open-minded and willing to change my stance on the issue if he presents me with convincing evidence for his arguments. But he’s obviously not willing to do the same, so there’s no point in debating him.”
The flaw in that belief is that it entails that you have convincing, unassailable evidence on your side and I have rejected it, and therefore I must not be willing to give up my Sacred Cows. But I have no Sacred Cows. And I have not rejected the evidence. I have rejected your interpretation of what little evidence you yourself have presented.
It’s also important to remember that I hold the heretical position here, not you, and heretics are the ones willing to reject Sacred Cows, not the orthodoxy.
Enorbet2 wrote:
+Scott Reeves - Not heretical when it’s based on religious dogma. Not logical when there can be no evidence of a center of the whole Universe, nor even of the Observable Universe when the odds are obviously so low. Your analogy of Lebanon and Kansas is flawed since, relative to Kansas, Lebanon does not move. The Earth, the Sun, the entire Milky Way galaxy moves. The Earth is on the outskirts of the galaxy approximately 26,500 Light Years from the rotational center so the deflection is the diameter or 53,000 Light Years, or roughly 300,000,000,000,000,000 miles. This doesn’t even include the motion of the linear motion of our Galaxy. Yet this one insignificant object out of likely trillions that didn’t exist when the Universe began, and won’t exist again in some 10-20 Billion years, moving such vast distances, is somehow magically at the center of it all? Seriously?
Scott Reeves wrote:
“Not logical when there can be no evidence of a center of the whole Universe, nor even of the Observable Universe when the odds are obviously so low.”
Actually, there is plenty of evidence that Earth is at the center of the observable universe. The evidence is so abundant and irrefutable that mainstream scientists, because they can’t accept Earth being at the actual center of the universe, hypothesize that EVERY point in the universe will see itself as the center (Copernican and Cosmological Principles). It is this hypothesis that gives rise to the observable universe vs. the entire Universe thing. Currently, all observational evidence shows that Earth is at the center of the universe, with no evidence to the contrary. It is up to mainstream scientists to satisfy the scientific method by properly testing their hypothesis. They must go to the edge of Earth’s observable universe and demonstrate that a point on or near the edge can observe a universe beyond the edge of Earth’s observable universe. Until that is done, according to all available empirical evidence, Earth is literally at the center of the entire universe.
Earlier, you yourself said, “Regarding the Observable Universe, please remember that it is 13.8 Billion years old, and due to Inflation appears in a sphere to us of a diameter of roughly 46 Billion light years…” So you defined a boundary enclosing a vast distribution of mass. It is illogical, not to mention physically impossible, that such an enclosure of mass does not have a center of mass, let alone a geometric center.
You are correct that there can be no evidence of the center of the WHOLE universe, nor even any evidence that a “whole Universe” exists beyond the observable universe, because, obviously, we cannot observe anything beyond our observable universe from our current position.
“The Earth, the Sun, the entire Milky Way galaxy moves.”
To make that statement true, you must assume the viewpoint of an observer in a reference frame relative to which all three of those objects are moving.
As far as Relativity is concerned, it’s all relative motion. According to Relativity, which of those three objects is moving depends upon which observer you ask. An observer on Earth can correctly say that he is not moving, and that both the Sun and the Milky Way are moving relative to him and to each other. Likewise with an observer on the Sun, or an observer stationary relative to the Milky Way as a whole.
“The Earth is on the outskirts of the galaxy approximately 26,500 Light Years from the rotational center so the deflection is the diameter or 53,000 Light Years, or roughly 300,000,000,000,000,000 miles.”
Irrelevant to whether Earth is at the center of the universe. In a geocentric universe, the Milky Way would be orbiting the barycenter of the universe just as the Sun would be. A barycenter which is currently occupied by the Earth.
“This doesn’t even include the motion of the linear motion of our Galaxy.”
Does our Galaxy have linear motion, or is it orbiting the barycenter of the universe like our Sun, while the other objects move toward or away from our Galaxy? If you accept Relativity, you also have to accept that all motion is relative, and that from the viewpoint of an observer on Earth, Earth is not moving.
“Yet this one insignificant object out of likely trillions that didn’t exist when the Universe began, and won’t exist again in some 10-20 Billion years, moving such vast distances, is somehow magically at the center of it all?”
This one insignificant object might not have existed when the Universe began (assuming a secular view of the universe’s origin), but the center of mass of the entire universe would have, and still will in some 10-20 Billion years. Why is it so inconceivable that if the universe has a center, a solar system might have formed near it sometime during the lifetime of the universe, and that some of the mass might have formed into a planet at the exact center of mass of the entire universe? There’s nothing magical about it, unless you mean in a philosophical or poetic sense.
Scott Reeves et al.